Jim Thomas: The Ultimate Black Belt Negotiator

I was 19. How long did you practice martial arts?

Well, you know, I guess to some extent all my life including now, but I was active in training through law school. So for about six years there in three years of undergraduate and three years of law school. Wow. And I think you said it was sure and rude that you studied?

That’s right. Wow. Very, very cool. Now my good friend Joe Corley tells me that you once fought Jerry Rome and I understand you took that fight with Jerry. on mere hours notice with Jeff Smith in your corner. How’d that happen?

Well, I think the story gets a little bit better over the years as it’s told. It wasn’t really hours notice. What happened is I went to Japan with Master Hamada. And I was fortunate enough to fight well while I was there. He had told me for years that when I got to Japan, they would kill me. And I actually went 63 and 0 in Japan. And so he thought I was invincible because I beat the fighters over there. And he then, without consulting me, arranged a full contact bout with Jerry Rome. And I had never fought full contact. In Japan, we fought sort of three quarters contact, but not full contact with gloves. And I had about 10 days to prepare. I called my friend Jeff Smith and asked him what he thought. And Jeff said, well, you’re a good fighter, but Frankly, I think Jerry will kill you.

And he said, you won’t last, he said, how many rounds?

I said seven. And he said, you won’t go seven rounds with Jerry Rome. You just, you’re not, you just don’t have enough experience to stay with him. So I called Hamada and told him that, you know, I would do anything for him, but that we would lose face and that there was no way I would last seven rounds. And he called back a half hour later and said, all set five rounds. not understanding what I was trying to tell him. So I decided to go forward with it anyway and Jeff came down to Williamsburg and helped me in my corner. Very interesting and I know as a young black belt myself I had the opportunity to train with Jerry once and man he hits hard doesn’t he?

Yeah, yeah. What happened is you know he was there to get some work and I the first round just you know, threw a thousand punches and kicks and came back to the corner and Jeff told me I had done real well, but I told him I couldn’t breathe. And in the second round, Jerry got tired of my nagging him with all these punches and decided to put my lights out. Jeff said it was the first time he ever saw somebody’s head hit first. Oh, Jeff would know. Well, that’s very interesting. Jim, clearly you are an extremely accomplished individual. In what ways did your martial arts training help you as you were climbing the ladder of success?

Well, I think in a number of ways. One is discipline, perseverance, confidence, and I think to a large extent the ability to control fear and anger and channel them productively. You know, one might say, well, what is there to fear in being a lawyer?

[04:01] But there are people who have fainted the first time they stood up in court in front of a full courtroom and a jury. And I think the ability to, I don’t believe that there are people who don’t have fear, I think there are people who learn how to deal with it and channel it. And I think I was able to do that. And the same thing with anger. I used to be, as a kid, somebody who blew up a lot. and lost his temper and I think through martial arts I learned that that just wasn’t productive. Well put. Now it goes to the whole field. How many years did you represent Evander?

Well I was with Evander for 13 years, 13 and a half thereabouts. When we met I was engaged to be his lawyer and for So, for three years, that’s what I did. I represented him in various litigation matters involving his boxing career and his business interests. But then, in January of 1995, he asked me to handle all of his boxing management services as well as being his attorney. So, for the last 10 years, I really, he and I were the entire business team. And what a great honor for you. I mean, you’re a fighter yourself and to work with a guy like Evander Holyfield It must have been like a dream come true. It was it was a dream come true for me It was a perfect fit and it’s the kind of thing that I felt that I had sort of You know been prepared for all my life because he needed the legal skills and I understood what he did the first time that Evander and I met in my office I told him that I be ready to get down to business, but first I wanted to show him something.

Actually, he started asking questions because in my office, which is all Japanese decor instead of diplomas, I’ve got my black belt diploma on the wall instead of my legal degrees because I’m more proud of the black belt. Beautiful. And he asked about that and I showed him a scrapbook of the fight with Jerry Rome and it was of great interest to him because Jerry was his current sparring partner at the time. And he said, you’re kidding me, you fought Jerry Rome?

And I said, yeah. And I said, but don’t get too excited. It doesn’t end well. And he said, I don’t care about that. You, the very fact that you got in there with them tells me a lot about you. And I never thought I’d find a lawyer who understood what I did. And we just hit it off on that basis right from the start. Wow. So you had his respect from the beginning. I think that is so cool. Jim, how much?

Cumulative purse revenue did you negotiate for Evander Holyfield over the years?

I mean you represented him for 13 and a half years. Well yeah, I mean the first three years I wasn’t really handling his boxing career but over the last 10 years I was and I handled all of the negotiations for everything. Site deals, television deals, promotional deals and every sponsorships and everything else and just the just the purses in the ring alone were Somewhere over $150 million. Oh, good lord. That is quite a huge number. Fantastic. So you’ve not only been in the ring, but you’ve been at the negotiation table many, many times. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And primarily with my nemesis in the business, Don King. We’re going to talk about him here in just a moment. Everybody knows who Don King is, the notorious Don King. I really enjoyed your book, The Holyfield Way. It was extremely motivational.

As I was reading it, I kept thinking, this guy is truly a master of negotiation. In fact, negotiation is the focus of our discussion here today for our martial arts instructors and leaders. So, on to the topic at hand. For starters, Jim, do you always aim for win-win when negotiating?

The short answer would be yes, although I would tweak that a bit in that I think of it a little differently. I know what Stephen Covey is going for when he talks about the concept of win-win and other people who talk about negotiation. I don’t really even think of it as win-win. I think of it as fair deal. I think of it as a collaboration on how to solve a problem in a way that’s fair for me and fair for my collaborator in the negotiation. And so I’m not really trying to win so much as to get what I need and satisfy the requirements of the other person. But lose win negotiating is certainly not something you aim for. No, I never try to beat somebody. I mean, I shouldn’t say never because I think there are different kinds of negotiations.

[08:41] If you’re going to a car dealer that you’re never going to see again and you’re trying to buy a car, I’m probably going to try to win that. I’m going to try to get the lowest price I can get and he’s going to try to get the highest price and we’re going to battle each other and will come out where we come out. But the kinds of negotiations that martial arts operators are going to be engaged in and the kind that I’m engaged in really are almost always negotiations that have a relationship attached. If you’re negotiating a lease, you’ve got a relationship with your landlord. And so winning the negotiation isn’t really a a great result if your opponent feels he lost because there’s always going to be resentment and payback. And so I’m trying to figure out how do I get something that satisfies my needs and that then is fair to the other side so that we don’t have a bad relationship going forward.

It’s really a look to the future and to long term relationships. Right. In other words, both people need to come out feeling like they’ve won or that they’re both happy. Yes. With the deal. I understand. As you know, martial arts school owners are entrepreneurs and small business owners. They typically negotiate for things like leases, rent, printing, staff salaries, real estate, et cetera, et cetera. Jim, please give us five tips that can help all of our fellow martial artists out there to improve their negotiation skills. Okay, yeah, I can do that. And I don’t know if they’re necessarily the top five, but I’ll give you five that I think are important. Great. One is to be prepared. I think it’s important to learn the facts. It takes some research and some good old hard work. Negotiation’s not just, it’s not simply a skill, it’s also, it depends upon research and fact gathering.

So that if you’re negotiating a lease, it’s important to know everything you can find out about what other people in the building are paying what other people in the neighborhood are paying what other people in similar circumstances are paying what other landlords are charging for similar space just so you have facts secondly I think it’s important to get inside I’ll call the other negotiator an opponent even though I said it’s not really contest but it’s an easier term to use great get inside your opponent’s head think about what your opponent’s goals are, what the needs are, and so on, and sort of play the other side. The next thing I think is to ask questions. I think there’s a tendency in all of us martial artists to be sort of aggressive by nature and want to be proactive and take the bull by the horns and get in and sort of lead the discussion and tell everybody how this should come out.

And I think it’s important early on to understand what you’re negotiating partner’s goals are and needs are. And so it takes some listening skills. I think you’ve got to listen carefully and appreciate your opponent’s legitimate concerns and find out ways to overcome those concerns or disclose the fact, reveal the fact that they’re not legitimate. And then I would say maybe one of the most important things of all is to be patient. And again, I think, you know, including myself, martial artists are usually, you know, highly motivated people and want to get on with it. And negotiating a lease, for example, isn’t the most fun thing a martial artist is going to do that week. So you want to get it over with, but it takes patience to get a good result. A good deal just takes time and creativity and not always forging ahead vertically, but drifting laterally sometimes to find a new opening and then going forward.

[12:40] Wow, and from a guy who’s negotiated over $100 million in purse revenue, that is just simply golden advice. Wow, thank you so much for that. For me, one of the most interesting parts of your book was reading about the many times you went toe to toe with Don King at the negotiation table. To begin with, I must ask, was King the toughest guy you’ve ever had to negotiate against?

He really was. And I’ve negotiated against some very skilled, very smart guys. But King is smart, and he’s hardworking. And the thing that differentiated Don is that he’s got fewer limits on what he’s willing to do to try to win. You know, when I’m negotiating with a top lawyer, I’m dealing with a guy who feels some limits on his behavior and Don doesn’t have the same limits. That’s kind of scary. Yeah. Some of your negotiations with King were just brutal. As I read in the book, I mean, often they were heated debates that went deep into the night. But you never back down despite the pressure, despite the intimidation and the various tactics that King used to try to throw you. There’s got to be a valuable lesson in here when it comes to negotiation. Jim, what is that lesson?

Well, I think it ties back to the question about, you know, what I learned from martial arts. And I think it was the ability to, you know, to overcome any kind of fear. I mean, you know, as you read in the book, Don and I found ourselves alone in the wee hours of the morning where no one knew where I was. That can be a fearful situation if you allow it to be. Because, you know, Don had somebody with him who was probably armed. And, you know, I knew we were about to butt heads again, seriously, as we always did. But I think it was the ability to channel that fear, overcome it, put it aside, and then also to control the anger. I mean, Don tries to get his opponents angry so that they don’t think as well.

And I think it’s a… It’s just an undebatable fact that when one loses one’s temper, one thinks less well. And I just tried to stay calm. He would bait me and curse and scream and yell and do things to distract me. And I would try to stay as calm as I could and stay in control and keep my true goal in mind, which wasn’t to beat Don or harm him in any way, but to get what Evander needed. And I was respectful even when I wasn’t being treated with respect. That’s one of the hardest things for me or anybody who’s a tough person to do. And the last thing is that I really tried to save face for my opponent, for Don King. I tried to not gloat or tried not to have him feel like he lost and find a way out where he could declare victory even though it was what I wanted.

So it sounds to me that your martial arts training helped you to learn self-control and even perhaps anger management because there were times with your negotiations with King where he was very sheepish in the beginning and acted like he was like a white belt at negotiation. But then it got to the point where he was yelling and screaming at you and even knocked you down at one point. Yes, absolutely. That was a tense moment for everybody in the room. I declared that it was my clumsiness because I had my end goal in mind. But had I not been looking out for Evander, I might have reacted in a less productive manner, let’s say. Very well put. At one point in your book, you describe how Evander was ready to walk away from his first fight against Mike Tyson because Don King only wanted to pay him $10 million or so.

[16:38] However, you knew that King would build a rematch clause into the contract if Holyfield were to win. You then convinced Holyfield to take the fight, sort of as a two for one deal, even though he felt that he was being underpaid for the first bout. Where Don King is concerned, I think you outfoxed the fox. But in reality, it turned out to be a classic win-win. Jim, you are very clever. How can we all learn to think this way?

Well, I think it’s really, I had a good instinct for fighting at an early age. It was something that came naturally to me, to knock back down and to find a way to win. But I think I became a much more effective fighter, and in this instance, this was a negotiation where I was trying to find a fair deal for both sides, but my opponent wasn’t. And so it wasn’t the same kind of collaboration I normally would aim for, because I had a guy who was trying to reach a deal that would be totally unfair. So this was a war, and I became a much more effective fighter through study and hard work in the martial arts. And I think the same is true for negotiation skills. I think you’ve just got to work hard at it.

In this case, it was the ability really to think ahead, almost like a chess game. Don thought we were negotiating about the current purse. What I was negotiating was to get into position where we could walk away from the rematch if we wanted to, which would give us tremendous leverage in the second bout. So I gave up some in the short term in order to get a whole lot more in the long run. So I think it goes without saying that if you’re going to step into the ring, you gotta have a strategy and if you’re gonna sit down at the negotiation table, you gotta have a strategy. Yes, absolutely and you need to look at the big picture. You don’t just look at today. Look at the long run. Beautiful. What does it mean to negotiate from a position of strength rather than a position of weakness and how important is this?

Well, I think basically to be a good negotiator, you need to know how to do both because sometimes you just don’t have a position of strength. It’s important to know the relative strengths of the two parties and that’s why I say do a lot of research on the front end. Try to figure out how much does my opponent need this deal?

How much do I need the deal? If I need it more than he does then I’m in a relative position of weakness. If he understands that, if the opponent understands it. But to negotiate from strength, position of strength an opponent needs to deal and you don’t And position of weakness is just the opposite I think it’s important when you’ve got a position of strength not to squeeze too hard not to overplay the hand because You’re gonna have some people who walk away from a deal on a matter of principle and that’s not a win-win So from a position a week, I need I think you need to show Confidence and be respectful and try to reason with someone so as to have your opponent not to use that, not to overplay his hand with a position of strength so that you don’t walk away on a matter of principle.

[20:02] Well, I guess like in all things, you just have to have a balance there. Yeah. Now, for Holyfield Tyson 2, you negotiated against Don King, an unprecedented $30 million purse. Plus a $3 million check, a Bentley for a Vanders car collection, and a bunch of other goodies, this marked the largest amount of money that was ever negotiated for any single sporting or entertainment performance in the history of the planet. What key negotiating skill or skills did you use to make this happen?

Well, it’s really what I was talking about. It was thinking ahead in the first contract. You know, I was looking ahead to this, I knew, I was, Evander and I were the only two people anywhere probably that knew in our hearts that Evander would beat Tyson in the first fight. So King just wasn’t worried at all about the rematch because he never thought it was a possibility. And therefore I built in my strength into the second contract, the second bout. And then the second thing I did was I built credibility with King. And with Showtime and personal relationships with the Showtime group, so that when I told them that Evander was prepared to retire rather than fight the second bout unless we got the terms that I was demanding, I had credibility and they believed me.

And I was also prepared on all of the facts and figures on pay-per-view likely rates, the likely gate and so on. So I had all the facts at my… fingertips. And then the last thing was I had patience. It took a long time. I mean, we started in the afternoon and finished late at night when King had a check delivered for $3 million, which was nonrefundable. So would it be safe to say that in this case you’re negotiating from a position of strength?

Yes. Okay. Yeah. And it was a strength that really was created. by negotiating skills in the first contract. That is, there’s such a brilliant lesson there. You had patience and you waited it out and the rewards were there when the time came. That’s great. How much mental preparation, and I know you’ve touched on this a little bit, but just to emphasize it, how much mental preparation should one do when embarking upon a serious negotiation or even a small negotiation for something as simple as like a lease on a karate school?

How should one prepare their mind for the battle?

Well, I think the best thing that one can do is develop a personal checklist. You know, you can think about some of the things I’ve said here today, but develop your own checklist. You know, it can be as simple as don’t lose your temper, be patient, ask questions, develop a relationship first before the hard negotiation. A list of things to remind yourself so that when you go in, those things are firmly in mind at the time you start and then approach the whole thing. I think, I think the last thing on the checklist would be approach this as a problem solving exercise. It’s a collaboration, you know, try to go into it. How do I solve my problem and my opponent’s problem at the same time?

Because we both need to agree. And I think, and then just stay disciplined. Inpatient. – So creating a checklist. Great idea. In your book, The Holyfield Way, by the way, thanks for the autographed copy. I have one right here in the sound studio with me, with you and Evander on the cover. Great book. But again, in the book, Evander says that you’re mentally tough. What do you think he meant by that?

And how did your martial arts training help accentuate this quality?

Well, by mental toughness, I think what Evander’s talking about is he’s seen my discipline and emotional control. He’s been with me when King has tried to bait me. You know, King has said, King’s well known for using race as a weapon sometimes, and he’s done it in front of Evander, and I just refuse to allow Don to win by getting me out of my game. And I think that’s the kind of mental toughness. It’s discipline and emotional control and perseverance and patience and demonstrating a total lack of fear. You know, I appreciated the threats and risks but I never let myself back down because of them and I think that’s what it is and those are things that I learned through the martial arts. Yeah, you got to kind of draw a circle around the pain I guess.

[24:33] It’s like when you spar and if you come right out and get a sidekick in the solar plexus, the fight’s not over. You just got to kind of put it out of your mind and forge forward keeping the end goal in mind. I think if I’m hearing you correctly your martial arts kind of taught you these things and then you’ve transferred it over to law and negotiating. Yes, absolutely. I mean you get kicked in the solar plexus and you can’t let the opponent show. No, that it hurt. I hear you. In your experience as a negotiator, are you able to tell when the other person is bluffing?

If so, then what are some of the clues you typically look for?

Well, the answer of whether I can tell when somebody’s bluffing depends on how good the other guy is. You know, some guys are good at it and some are transparent. You know, I think the thing I look for is emotion. Emotion often betrays bluffing. You know, we’re in a business discussion. There’s no reason for somebody to start screaming and cursing and yelling, and that makes me think there’s something wrong with the position. There’s something that that not compelling enough about the facts so it has to be covered up with emotion and I think if I feel Sincerity and calmness then I’m much more I think there’s much less likelihood that any bluffing is going on. – Good point Many people out there are afraid to ask for what they’re really worth during a negotiation. You’ve always been protected Evander when it came to this so he didn’t get taken advantage of.

For martial arts instructors, some can be a little sheepish when it comes time to ask for a long-term renewal or an expensive cash out on a membership, for instance. What advice would you give to school owners who need to overcome this fear?

Well, you know, I think I can think of an analogy here. What I do for a living is take care of other people. I have clients and I fight for them just like I fought for Evander. But within my own partnership and these are friends of mine, I need to fight for myself and there’s a tendency to be less of an advocate for myself than I am for my clients and I have to think of myself as two people and I think the martial arts owner needs to think of himself as two people. He needs to go in and represent himself. and ask for what his client deserves. So I go into my negotiations with my partners and negotiate on behalf of Jim Thomas as if he’s a third party. And I need to try to get for Jim what Jim deserves.

So you’re almost looking at it as from an outsider’s perspective. Yeah, because I’m thinking that guy over there, Jim Thomas, he deserves to get… certain compensation and here’s why and I think of myself as the advocate for him. That is so interesting. It’s probably helping you to take some of the emotion out of it too. Absolutely. Yeah, and it takes away the embarrassment because I think, well, heck, if I were the lawyer for him, I wouldn’t be embarrassed to ask for that for him. So why should I be embarrassed to ask for it for myself?

And I’m assuming that that’s probably one of the things that hold people back when they’re negotiating is that they’re just embarrassed to ask for things. Yeah, I think so. But then again, if what you’re asking for is something that ought to embarrass you shouldn’t ask for it. I follow. Great point. Now, Jim, you’ve already gifted us with some of the key factors in accomplishing a successful negotiation. Next, I’d like to ask you how aggressive one should be when negotiating. In other words, do you gradually put more and more pressure on the other person?

[28:20] And if so, how do you balance this without ruining the deal based upon your experience?

What works best? Well, this is the art portion of the science and art that is effective negotiation. I think you need to feel your way all the time. You know, you get better with experience. But it, you know, I don’t think you can go into a fight knowing exactly how aggressive you’re going to be. I think you need to have be able to, as we say, roll with the punches and feel your way through it. I think it’s an art form. You need to ask questions, open your mind, have some creativity and you can feel when it’s about to break and that’s the point where if you need to deal, you need to back off. You need to let some of the pressure off. Sometimes you just need to take a break. Sometimes it’s exhausting and emotions are high and it’s good to take a break and you might even, you know, get a beverage and have a little small talk and then come back to it.

And in fact, Kingham and I have done that. When I thought he was just too emotional, I’d say, why don’t we stop, let’s get a glass of wine and then take up again in the morning. And that’s a way to hold things together. That’s great. So once again, it’s kind of like, I mean you react depending often times how your opponent reacts. Yeah, you just have to kind of go with the flow and it’s got to be an experience that teaches you that I think it is and also using your head and just being open-minded not having one way to do things Yeah, and I just think anybody thinks that you know, I’ve got my own style My own style is to roll over everybody just when you if you ran up against me, it wouldn’t work.

– I can tell Now school owners, they often find themselves negotiating with other businesses, corporations, sometimes academic schools, government agencies, etc. for group membership programs. Do you have any insights or tips that would help them to negotiate with groups such as these a little more successfully?

Yeah, I think generally the principles I’ve already discussed apply to all negotiations, including this type. But here, I would say it’s even more important to, as Stephen Covey says, seek to understand and then to be understood. Before bargaining, try to have the other side understand your business and why it’s fair for you to be asking for what you’re asking for. And try to understand the other side’s position and why it’s fair, what the needs, what the legitimate needs are of that other person. – Yeah, otherwise you’re probably just not gonna negotiate the deal properly. Yeah, I think it just takes some understanding and an education I mean if I think if a for example, we’ve been using this example But if a landlord thinks that all you’re trying to do is pay less. -He’s less likely to agree with that.

-but if a landlord understands how your business works, I and that it can only be a certain percentage and that maybe what we can do, Mr. Landlord, is maybe we can tie the rent in somehow to my revenues. And then we’ll both win if I start doing well and you can start helping me do well. That’s the kind of notion I’m thinking about is educate them. I can’t pay what you want me to pay, what you tell me my next door neighbor’s paying. Because I don’t have the revenue right now, I don’t have the students. But if you give me some time I can make it up. That’s the kind of educational process I think is important. Well, also if the landlord understands that if you have two or three hundred students and all those folks are coming and they’re gonna go to the yogurt shop in the plaza and the nail salon and the pizza shop and it’s gonna bring more energy and excitement to the whole plaza, he may be more inclined then to give you the rate that you need.

[32:15] Absolutely. It’s a very good example. of doing your homework ahead of time and having some facts at your fingertips and ways to explain the not so obvious benefits. Correct. Now Jim, it seems as though everybody is suing everybody these days. Now I’m exaggerating of course, but how do you recommend school learners protect themselves from basic potential liabilities?

Can you give us a few suggestions? Yes, I can and I feel strongly about this. The single best thing you can do, I mean a lot of people would say Get yourself a really tough lawyer. That doesn’t keep you from getting sued. It might keep you from losing, but it doesn’t keep you from losing a lot of money. The best thing you can do to keep from getting sued is to develop relationships and respect. Treat people with respect. You know, people are going to give you a lot more benefit of the doubt if you’ve been fair on a consistent basis. If you’ve been a good tenant, you’re much less likely to get evicted the first time you breach the lease. So I think you need to develop and earn respect in relationships. And if somebody’s hurt in the school, for example, I think you need to show some genuine concern.

I think you need to be more worried about that person and getting the person, you know, looked after than you do about liability. And that’s more likely to result in a a parent or somebody saying, you know, I might have the right to sue this guy, but I don’t want to do that to him. And I imagine you see that kind of thing happen all the time being in the line of work you’re in. Oh, sure. But I mean, I do think though, as a practical matter, I mean, those are sort of the psychological things, but it is it’s important to sit down with a very good lawyer who’s Got some knowledge in this area and spend an hour or two as painful as that might be spending time with a lawyer, but sit down with your lawyer and develop a spit, develop specific release language for your business.

Don’t just get some, you know, generic release, but get language that applies to a karate school. Think it through, have your lawyer understand your business and fine tailor it. Because if I’m the judge, the more, Specific the language is to what actually happened the more likely I am to enforce the release Question if one of your students is an attorney, can you trade him?

Lessons for this kind of work Yeah, I don’t see why not okay fantastic. Why not good. Well, you know most schools out there have one of each Yeah doctors attorneys accountants roofers who knows?

Okay, let’s move briefly into the category of education. I know that Nelson Mandela is one of your heroes and Joe Corley tells me that you’re a fan of brilliant thinkers like Dr. Stephen Covey, whom we think will be a guest on this show very soon. Who are some of your favorite mentors, either that you’ve worked with personally or whose work you have studied that have led you to your style of negotiation and your overall success?

Well, I think, I mean, this is kind of, I guess, reaching too high here, but I’ll just tell you anyway that in addition to Mandela, I think his predecessors Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, I think were great leaders and very effective negotiators. And I think they showed patience and respect and perseverance and they avoided giving in to anger and fear. And those are the principles that I have talked about and that I try to apply to negotiations. And it’s worked for you. Yeah, it’s worked real well. Clearly. Wow, great answer. How important is continuing education to you, Jim?

[36:09] For that matter, how important is it for anyone who runs a small business such as a martial arts academy?

And how would you advise martial arts instructors to seek that continuing education?

Well, I try to learn every day. from everyone and everything around me at there’s nobody around me who doesn’t have something he or she can teach me I had a lot more formal education in a bender and yet I learned so many things from him because I was opened it to a different way of thinking in a different background that he had in and that was an education for me I have also spent a lot of time informal it continuing education and I just believe that if you’re not learning, you’re falling behind people who are. And I know from Jeff Smith and Joe Corley and other friends that this is a very competitive business. And, you know, some of the people are going to put the work in and continue to learn and grow and some people are going to try to just stay where they are and by staying where they are, they’re getting further behind.

So I think you’ve got to, one of the keys is another covey principle is you’ve got to measure your your productivity against your production capacity. You can’t spend all of your time in the studio teaching and not learn growing as an entrepreneur. Things like being open to interviews like this, to my book where I teach a lot of things about negotiations and other books, I think they’re places to learn how to be a businessman. That makes you, in the long run, more productive, but in the short run, you’ve got to spend some energy getting educated. Yeah, and that’s truly the essence of what NAPMA does. So we’re definitely on the right path. I believe that every martial arts school learner should affiliate himself or herself with a good attorney. As an attorney yourself, why would you agree or disagree with this and why?

Well, it’s absolutely essential. There is, I don’t think there’s anybody who can operate any business today without, can operate a business as effectively as he or she wants to without proper legal guidance. And I think it’s important to get the right attorney. And the right attorney is somebody who, obviously it’s somebody who’s skilled, but more, just as important as somebody who will listen and truly try to understand and care about your own business. And that’s why if you do have a martial arts practitioner, it’s just gonna, that’s gonna be a much more natural fit because by definition that person’s gonna care about this business. If I can, I’m gonna bring you back to that Jim because there’s a lot of people I’m sure that are listening to this right now that are saying to themselves, I do not have an attorney.

Where do I begin? I mean, if you don’t have a student who is an attorney, I mean, do you just go through the phone book?

Do you go see a bunch of different attorneys and then choose one?

What’s your advice? No, I just wouldn’t do that any more than I would look in the phone book for a doctor. I think this is just as important from a business standpoint. It’s your financial lifeblood. So it should be as important as picking a doctor. Nobody picks a doctor that way. I think what you need to do is ask people, talk to people. And if people have no particular feeling, yeah, I got an attorney and he’s okay, forget that. But ask until you find somebody says, I’ve got a guy who really cares. He really cares about me, he spends the time and he’s knowledgeable and he’s always learning. Then you say, would you mind introducing us?

And I think yeah, it’s helpful to you know try a couple but when you find somebody who you feel confident about and seem sincere and is willing to spend the time and care then that’s when you’ve got the right attorney. – I hear so you go with your gut Let’s see here you’ve demonstrated that you’re not a quitter and you even end your book by playing off of this concept How instrumental has this never?

[40:25] Quit attitude been to your overall success in business and in life?

I would say it’s the single most important factor in the success that I’ve enjoyed. You know, I think, you know, Evander says, this is one of the things that he says well, and I’ve remembered since the first day he said it. He said, you know, there are all kinds of people, but the people we call champions, the only thing that’s different about them is they’re the ones who decided not to quit. That everybody else has a point where they quit. And champions just don’t. And so, if you never quit, eventually you’ll get there. Now the caveat I have to that is there’s a difference in, you have to distinguish quitting from staying open to new and better ways and directions. Going in the same direction that isn’t working until it works isn’t necessarily the right strategy.

You know, and finding a new way is not quitting the old way. It’s being smart. But giving up in all ways is the only course of certain failure. You know, I want to play off of that a second. Just by coincidence, this past Saturday night, we caught a one-hour documentary on Evander Holyfield and by happenstance, you were seen throughout the entire documentary documentary at Evander’s side. And one of the things that was real interesting was that even leading up to this fight with Bird, Evander I think had a torn rotator cuff, and he fought this guy with one arm, he just would not quit. I mean it just seems like he wouldn’t quit and you wouldn’t quit. Did you pick that up from him or did he pick that up from you?

He didn’t pick it up from me. He picked it up. from life experiences early on. There’s a story in the Holy Field way in my book that I think illustrates this wonderfully. I won’t spend the time here telling it, but it involves his mother teaching him not to quit. She was a very forceful woman and he loved her and respected her very much. She told him so many times he couldn’t ever forget it that she didn’t raise a quitter. And so he didn’t learn it from me. I don’t believe, it’s fair to say, I learned it from Evander, but he certainly solidified it in my mind. So sometimes a fighter has trouble retiring. We’ve seen it with Muhammad Ali, Larry Holmes, perhaps the case of Evander Holafield. Retiring is not quitting, is it?

No, no, that’s a different thing. That’s realizing that you’ve accomplished what you were meant to accomplish. I mean our bodies are you know we can do great things with them through will but there’s a in my view There’s a limit to that in the banners view. There’s no limit to it And he’s accomplished more physically than I ever can or will But I just think there’s a difference between Realizing that I’ve now accomplished what I was meant to accomplish and move on to something new I understand now on a side note you have worked with Joe Corley very closely on your shared vision of PKA style kickboxing as the ring sport of choice in our lifetimes. Why do you feel PKA has such a bright future?

Well, I just think it’s a superior product to the mixed martial arts we’re seeing. I think by seeing mixed martial arts, we realize that there’s an appetite for people to see two men square off and see who’s the better man. And I’m all for that. I just think that the mixed martial arts is just not as good or pure of a product as PKA style kickboxing. Well I sure hope Joe brings that back. I still remember sitting there on the couch with my grandfather when I was just a kid watching Jerry Rome knock out bad Brad Hefton in the PKA. There were so many great fights and it was just so good I think for martial arts. I really hope Joe can revive that. Well you know it’s interesting that particular fight I was at ringside and Joe has some footage of that fight and as Jerry is landing the punch, as he’s about to land the punch, before he even lands the punch on Brad, there’s one person in the audience who has already stood up and realized what is about to happen.

[44:43] Who’s that? Evander Holyfield. You’re kidding, he was there too?

He was there and he saw it about to happen. He was the first one to see what was going to happen. Really?

How interesting. I had no idea. Oh, that is so cool. Now, it’s evident in your writing that you have tremendous love and admiration for Evander Holyfield. And I can hear that in your voice too today. What’s the most valuable lesson that you learned from him?

Well, it’s true. I do have great love and admiration for him and I always will. And I learned a lot from him, as I said. But I think the most important thing that I learned from Evander is the importance of a positive attitude. He just emphasized it over and over and I watched him do it. It’s not just that he said it. I watched in so many difficult circumstances for him to just keep a positive attitude. And one of the things he said that’s always stuck with me is that a setback is nothing but an opportunity for a comeback. When things go bad for me, I always try to say that to myself. Okay, it’s just a setback. I got an opportunity for a comeback now. You know, pick yourself up and let’s go. It’s that positive attitude, I think, that’s the most important thing that he taught me and that I can pass on to anybody else.

Well, I agree completely. You know, attitude is everything. And every high-profile guest that we’ve had here on The Sounds of Success has reiterated that from Zig Ziglar and Tony Robbins to Brian Tracy and Jean-Claude Van Damme, I mean I could go on and on and you’ve certainly joined that group. Jim, finally, success is a relative term. Can you share with us your personal definition of success?

Yes, I can. I would say success for me is really a function of two things. The first is dissatisfaction that I get with what I do and how I do it. In other words, accomplishing what I want to accomplish in an ethical way, in a way that I’m proud of. And then the second element is the degree to which I can make a positive difference, even if it’s just in small ways. You know, I’ve got many heroes who I consider successful because they live lives of integrity and kindness and help others. And maybe just in ways that are under the radar, but I think they’re just as much heroes as the great famous people who do big things. And so I think success in life is to be proud of what you’ve done and how you’ve done it and to help other people in some way that makes a positive difference.

I understand completely. Well, Jim, what can I say?

This has just been a tremendous tremendous interview. I’m very honored that you spent the time with me here today so that I can then get this material out to fellow martial arts instructors in 22 different countries around the world. This interview will be turned into a cover story, of course, for the Martial Arts Professional Magazine. It’ll then go to 21,000 martial arts schools all over North America. This is going to help a lot of people out. And I also want to recommend to everybody out there listening or reading this interview that they go pick up a copy of your book. It’s called The Holy Field Way, what I learned about courage, perseverance, and the bizarre world of boxing. It’s extremely motivational, very inspirational, and really a must read for anyone who is a boxing fan. There’s a great photo section in it.

[48:23] As I thumb through it now, I see pictures of you and Heidi Klum. I see Mike Tyson eating a Van Der Holyfield’s ear off, you kicking the bag, there’s all kinds of good stuff in here. Steven Seagal. Steven Seagal, he’s right here. So yeah, fantastic. They can get this book, I guess, at Amazon. Amazon.com, Barnes and Nobles, Borders, some other bookstores, but those for sure, it’s in all of those stores. And there’s a website called Sports Publishing LLC. Dot-com is another place so any of those places you can pick it up so Fantastic go out and get that book. You’ll enjoy it. It’ll be a welcome addition to your library What can I say he is Jim Thomas the whole the field way Jim?

Thank you so much. Thank you, Rob. Take care now. Okay. Bye. Bye The sounds of success is produced in Clearwater, Florida It is intended exclusively for members of the National Association of Professional Martial Artists and their staffs