Martial Arts Professional Magazine

Learn How these Three Legends of the Martial Arts Became the Original World Champions, Fierce Competitors, the Best of Friends and Role Models for All Martial Arts Students, Instructors and a New Generetion of Fighters.

NAPMA and Martial Arts Professional is proud to bring you a rare treat - a gathering of eagles iin modern martial arts lore - a two-part conversation with Middleweight Champion Bill “Superfoot” Wallace, Light Heavyweight Champion Jeff Smith and Heavyweight Champion Joe Lewis. They are three of the preeminent martial artist in the U.S. and the world,during the last four decades.

In October of 2007, Stephen Oliver invited them to participate in his live coaching event and Mile High Karate national Black Belt Retreat. During that weekend, Wallace, Smith and Lewis were joined by Stephen Oliver and Mark Graden, NAPMA’s Director of Martial Arts Curriculum, and Mile High Karate school owners and instructors to record their “reunion” conversation.

It didn’t take long before Jeff Smith was telling stories that Joe Lewis wanted to deny or to which Bill Wallace wanted to add details. Even in a printed form, it it easy to recognize the deep friendship, even love, of these champions for each other - and the competitive fires that still burn and drive them to succeed in their current roles.

“The great thing is that we all have different techniques. As teammates, we were basically unstoppable simply because we knew what each other had and we could help each otherduring the competition.” Bill Wallace

Jeff Smith: Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis are both older than me. The first time I saw them fight I was in my baby crib, watching them on TV. Just kidding. I was actually playing on my swing set.

Joe Lewis: You ready to go a few rounds for that comment?

Jeff Smith: I’ll tell a Joe Lewis story and then a Bill Wallace story. The first time I saw Joe Lewis fight…

Joe Lewis: The story about me is a lie.

Jeff Smith: …was the internationals in ’67. I was a Brown Belt at the time and came all the way from Texas with some friends. Back then Joe was not the friendly guy he is now. Back then he didn’t want to talk to anybody. His knuckles were even bigger in those days than they are today.

Joe Lewis: You’re talking about the one with…

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Jeff Smith: Vic Moore. That was in San Antonio.

Joe Lewis: That was in ’68. Kansas City.

Jeff Smith: You see how the years and our memories are confused?

Joe had just been married and he was fighting Victor Moore. Vic said, “No, no, Joe, you have to remove your wedding ring.” Joe said, “Get away” and pulled his hand away. Joe’s secret is that he was a very hard puncher; but he basically goes to the body with the thing. He throws a back fist to the face, but he doesn’t make contact. He throws a side kick and a reverse punch to the body, so he has very good control. Whereas, Victor Moore is primarily a face puncher and he likes to hit you, so Joe told Victor, “Don’t hit me in the face.”

Joe Lewis: Let me add some background. In ’66, at the national championships, Vic and I and two other guys. Steve Shepherd and Thomas LaPuppet, were the final four. During his match, Vic is just pounding the hell out of Steve Shepherd; they were both jump kickers. Vic lost the match.

I said, “How come you keep hitting the guy in the head?” Vic said, “That’s how I psych them out,” so I knew Vic likes to hit his opponents in the head topsych them out. I told him, “You hit me in the head

and you’re going to pay.”

Jeff Smith: Joe and Vic bowed in, and right off the bat, Victor just hits him right smack in the head, in the face. Joe responded and had Victor on the floor and was just pounding on him, thirty-five, forty times, and Victor’s head is off the platform.

Joe Lewis: It was only three or four times.

Jeff Smith: No, there was much more than just three or four; trust me. They grabbed Joe and pulled him off and Victor jumped up – of course, no one was on Victor – and grabbed a chair and started coming at Joe Lewis. Am I right?

Joe Lewis: I hit him three times and then three guys grabbed me and tried to break my arm to pull me off. If I had hit him a fourth time, then he’d be dead.

Jeff Smith: By the time they finally grabbed Victor and pulled the chair away from him, Joe and Vic were ready to finish the bout. The officials didn’t give Victor the point, but, by this time, the right side of Victor’s face was about three times its normal size. It was badly swollen. Joe came in, hit him with a side kick, knocked him across the ring and received a point. He then he hit him with a reverse punch, and, at that time, there was only two points for the match, so he beat him two to nothing.

Now, my Bill Wallace story. Joe and I would knock people out, but Bill says he never hurt anyone. He would hit them with that left leg of his. I actually saw him throw that reverse side kick with the right leg and I couldn’t believe it. Who was that?

Bill Wallace: Robert Biggs. Every time I throw a right leg I score.

Joe Lewis: That’s like me saying I was never beat, which I wasn’t. I’m the national karate champion.

Jeff Smith: Back in the point era days, no one on the national circuit was more feared than Joe Lewis because, when you fought him – everyone knew thatit wasn’t about winning or losing – you knew you would be hurt because he didn’t just lay a punch. He didn’t knock out his opponents with blows to their heads because he would have been disqualified.

He had these big old knuckles that looked like ballpeen hammers and when he put those on your ribs, no one ever wanted to fight him. At the beginning of a tournament, the fighters would stand in a line; Joe would appear there first and then everyone else would move down to the other side of the ring. All the other fighters would start switching places in line and shuffling spots for fifteen minutes, before someone would have to be the first to fight him.

No one was afraid of Bill, but no one knew how to stop his left leg. There’s never been anybody in karate that threw only one leg. Of course, he comes from all different angles, so you never know from where he attack was coming. He would use a back fist and a right hand once in a while, but mostly a back fist and a left leg, so he basically had two techniques. Am I telling the truth?

Bill Wallace: I had other things that helped me run from Joe.

Joe Lewis: He had a hook punch to the…

Jeff Smith: He used that right hand once in a while, but mainly to hold his sleeve up; and, even though he only used that one leg or that back fist, no one knew how to stop it. Bill dominated everyone during the point era. There were many real heavy hitters; guys that everyone thought would be great, but when they went into full contact fighting, they just didn’t make it. Many people thought Bill Wallace wouldn’t do well in full contact because he would just throw the kick. He would never hit anybody very hard, but it was because he was controlling it.

Bill Wallace: I was controlling it.

“Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis are both older than me. The first time I saw them fight I was in my baby crib, watching them on TV. Just kidding. I was actually playing on my swing set.” Jeff Smith

Jeff Smith: I’m from Texas, so my punching style was if you didn’t see it come out the back of the uniform, then it wasn’t a point. Of course, that’s kind of how Joe fought, even though most of the guysfrom California were very much point touch fighters, Joe was a much harder fighter than the guys from California. When they switched to full contact, everyone said, “Bill Wallace won’t do anything. He’ll lose.” He then won the world championships and kept winning and developed his boxing skills. He had a left hook and a right cross and threw many hands. He had a very strong upper body and his leg was so fast that the speed that it generated actually had considerable concussion effect. When Bill’s opponents started putting their hands up, he’d go back to the body, and broke many ribs with that kick too. He had this little bony heel that would do plenty of damage to your ribs.

Joe Lewis: I cheated every time.

Bill Wallace: Thank you very much. Old age and deception will overcome youth and skill every time. It’s only cheating when you are caught.

Jeff Smith: The first time I fought Bill, he beat me 11 to 3. We were in a team fight. Remember that one?

Bill Wallace: That was where, St. Louis? Jeff Smith: In the Midwest somewhere and our team was up like…

Bill Wallace: …Thirty-five points.

Jeff Smith: No, we were up like 12 or 13 points, so everyone said, “Just stay away from Wallace, and we’ll win.” Well, that doesn’t work. Trying to stay away from him is like trying to swat a swarm of bees, and so that’s why when I fought you in ’73…

Bill Wallace: Oh, let me tell that story. We’re in Ocean City, Maryland. That was good for him because Jeff won the tournament. I had just fought in a tournament…anyone remember a guy named Larry Whitener?

He’s from the Southeast. He was a big old ex-football player who played for Tennessee. He kicked me in the back of my left leg and caused a subdural hematoma, which is a blood clot in the muscle, stopping the flow of blood. My leg was swollen, but I was still committed to the Ocean City tournament, so I went. One evening, someone suggested that we take a walk. After five miles, I couldn’t walk further because of my swollen leg. I had to hop onto someone’s shoulders to be carried to the hotel. When the competition started the next day, we lined up to determine who would fight whom. I said, “I don’t care.” Jeff said, “Well, I’ll fight Bill.”

Jeff Smith: I lined up with Bill. Bill Wallace: I said, “Please Jeff, I don’t care where you hit me, just don’t kick me in the back of my leg.”

We bow in; I take my stance, and his first move, “Bam!” My eyes popped out.

Jeff Smith: That was a sweep, Bill, followed by two punches.

Bill Wallace: Yeah. I didn’t care about the two punches. All I cared about was my leg. I stood there and said, “Why did you do that?” Jeff said, “I don’t know.”

Jeff Smith: That was a sweep.

Bill Wallace: Oh yeah, right. Well anyway that was…

Jeff Smith: I didn’t hit his leg the next time, I swept…

Bill Wallace: You didn’t have to because I…

Jeff Smith: He raised his injured leg, so I swept his supporting leg and then stomped him because he was my buddy. That’s OK. He paid me back.

Bill Wallace: Exactly. Thank you very much.

Jeff Smith: He put my teeth through my lip with that little weak side kick of his.

Bill Wallace: We cut on each other all the time. We’ve known each other since probably the mid- sixties and we’ve been to tournaments all over the world, Germany, Holland, England, France; and the comradeship is just absolutely fantastic. The great thing is that we all have different techniques. We don’t throw the same technique; we don’t throw with the same power and speed, but as teammates, we were basically unstoppable simply because we knew what each other had and we could help each other during the competition…Well, none of us liked Joe.

“[Joe Lewis] had these big old knuckles that looked like ball-peen hammers and when he put those on your ribs, no one ever wanted to fight him.” Jeff Smith

Jeff Smith: We liked Joe fighting with us because every time we went to Europe, every team that we ever had, we beat everyone in Europe; and we didn’t just beat them, we would just annihilate them because they didn’t even know what point karate was. The Europeans were just getting their feet wet, so all the promoters would bring us over. We taught seminars that were videotaped. When we returned to Europe two years later and everyone was doing the splits like Bill Wallace and their forearms and bodies were pumped up like Joe Lewis, so they would just duplicate our techniques. It was amazing how quick they came up to speed. On one trip, we went to Germany for the WAKO championship with 35 or 40 countries represented. That’s the championship Calvin Thomas has won; he was coach of the team. I was coach for about 10 years and then Mark Graden was coach, his brothers, John and Jim, were coaches, and Mark won the WAKO gold medal.

Mark Graden: That was the WAKO pro. It was a long journey to a world championship, sixteen years actually. My first shot was at the WAKO world championships in Venice when Master Smith was my coach. I lost my first fight; it was a terrible decision. I swept the guy off his feet twice and kicked him in the head a bunch of times, but the United States was not in big favor at that time. The team… the fight… the world championship was supposed to be in Atlantic City that year. Actually, the year before, the United States completely dropped the ball. The administration never booked the venue and apparently there were Europeans who had bought nonrefundable tickets and came to Atlantic City…

Jeff Smith: When you’re dealing with the casinos, you can lose your booking to some high roller or someone with seniority with the casino. They’ll outbid you, even though you think you have rooms reserved. They don’t care who you are.

Mark Graden: So, the Europeans were not about to let any Americans win, unless it was a knockout. We did wind up winning the world championship entirely on one of the hottest point fighting teams of all time. We had Linda Denley, Hakim Alston, Mafia Halloway and a whole bunch of really sharp point fighters. Jeff Smith: The WAKO pro; and his brothers both had won a number of times over there and his brother John was coach also for the team.

Joe Lewis: Matter of fact, Mark is the current superhero WAKO world champion.

Jeff Smith: Exactly. Joe, Bill and I traveled to all these other countries. We fought in Holland against the Dutch National team, but there was only one Black Belt on the team. I think I fought the Black Belt, but all the other guys were Blue Belts or Green Belts. We asked, “How come there are no Black Belts?” We were told that the Dutch team didn’t want its Black Belts to fight us because if we beat them, then it would make them look bad. The Dutch thought that if we beat them that it wouldn’t mean much because their team was all under-belts. We beat them, anyway.

I approached the promoter of the event, who was a Olympian judo champion, a big old martial arts coach of Shotokan style fighters, the real hard fighters. I asked him, “Can I fight the coach of the team, so they could see one of their national team members against one of us?” I asked because the coach of the Dutch team was also on the national team, but he wasn’t fighting; he was just coaching.

I asked my question privately, but the promoter grabbed the microphone and announces to the whole arena that I’m challenging the coach of the other team to a knockout fight. I didn’t say a thing. Of course, the audience goes ballistic and they’re all clapping. The other coach said, “Oh no, I don’t have a uniform, I don’t have a uniform!” Some of his students shout, “Sensei, you can use my uniform, sensei!”

We were fighting with the foam gloves and the Dutch team didn’t have foam gloves, they didn’t fight with anything. Obviously, if you have the foam gloves and your opponents don’t, then it gives them a distinct advantage because it doesn’t take but one shot to cut you; but I went ahead and wore the foam gloves. I went in and kicked the coach. When he came in, he grabbed my leg, took me down and then proceeded to punch my head through the floor. I luckily moved and hit the floor and the referee moved him off me. We rose to our feet and I side kicked him, sweeping him. As he fell to the ground and his head bounced off the ground, I stomped his head into the ground and it reacted like a ping-pong ball. Now, his head was bleeding, he was unconscious, and everyone was quiet. The referee was counting him out. His students come over and pick up his feet; you’d think someone would pick up his hands, right? Drag him off the stage, with a trail of blood that would remind you of the lions and the gladiators. Now, his school was in arms and the audience didn’t know what to do.

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All of a sudden, the coach of the school approaches the promoter while he’s talking on the microphone and sucker punch him right in front of the audience. It broke out into a big brawl with the school versus their school, and we’re all just kind of standing around watching what’s going on. Someone called the police to break it up. The cops came in and said we would need an escort back to the hotel. Joe and I said, “We don’t need an escort.” Joe and I walked out into the hall where everyone was sitting. We wanted to see if everyone would be waiting for us or if they would be friendly with us. Thankfully, they shook our hands, “Good job, good fighting,” so we didn’t have any problem. They weren’t after us, the U.S. team; they were after the promoter because they thought the promoter set them up. They thought he was the one that asked for the match between the coach and me, rather than me making the challenge.

We have so many stories like that from when we were traveling in Europe and throughout the United States. The Joe Lewis story is very interesting because not only was he the first guy to ever do kickboxing back before it was in the world championships, but also he’s the one that actually went into the boxing gym, trained with the boxers, knew how to use his hands and could actually kick too.

Many of the earlier kickboxers didn’t have the kicks or the hands. They were either one way or the other. Very few could do both. Joe wasn’t a real flashy kicker, but he had plenty of power with his kicks, and especially with his side kick; it was the one he used to take everyone out. Because of Joe’s influence in the point era and then him changing…going into the boxing gyms and doing these kickboxing matches. He has had some vicious kickboxing matches that are notorious among the older guys, the pioneer guys in karate, such as his fight with Ed Daniels, for example. Ed Daniels is like a 6’7”, 300-pound fighter from Texas, hard-nosed fighter who won many tournaments. He was a real good competitor and a real gentleman too, real nice guy, but fought Joe in a kickboxing match and Joe hit him so hard he put him in a coma. He revived and came out of it and was fine after that, but Vic Moore… You did a kickboxing match with Victor Moore?

Joe Lewis: No.

Jeff Smith: That’s right, it was Jim Harrison. You fought Greg Baines, the guy from South Carolina, North Carolina, or from somewhere in the South.

Joe Lewis: No, Greg Baines was a California state karate champion.

Jeff Smith: Where did you fight him? Wasn’t that in the…

Joe Lewis: That was in Los Angeles or Long Beach, California.

Jeff Smith: Joe quit point fighting and then Bill and I were winning back and forth. Bill was number one for several years, then I was number two. I was number one once, he was number two; we went back and forth. Bill was mainly number one, ahead of me 90% of the time, but Joe Lewis had retired from doing any kind of point fighting, when I fought Bill at the first professional championships in ’73; it was the first time they ever gave money for an event. To that time, we were given trophies. They gave the grand champion $500 and that was a big purse, but for us, when we were getting nothing, it was pretty good to have $500.

“I got Jhoon Rhee to give me a thousand bucks under the table to come back to defend my title because I had saw all the money the promoters were making, so in ’67, I said, “You want me to fight? You pay me.” Joe Lewis

Joe Lewis: I got Jhoon Rhee to give me a thousand bucks under the table to come back to defend my title because I had saw all the money the promoters were making, so in ’67, I said, “You want me to fight? You pay me.” I didn’t tell anyone.

Jeff Smith: Joe was refereeing the matches in ’73 and I talked him into coming back to D.C. with me and train with me for about three weeks. There was a tournament coming up in Texas, the Karate Olympics in Houston, so I talked Joe into coming back to stay with me for three weeks and train with me – and he introduced me to running. I had jumped rope, but I never ran before and Joe was always running. He took me out running and tried to kill me running, but…

Joe Lewis: You couldn’t stay with me for two miles; that was good.

Jeff Smith: That was the first time I ever ran. We would fight for two hours straight and just keep waiting for the other guy to say, “You know, okay, that’s enough fighting,” but we would just keep on fighting. I never fought Joe in competition and I’m glad I didn’t; but just from having trained with him those three weeks, he comes back, having not fought in a point tournament in, must have been six or seven, maybe more years…

Joe Lewis: It was about three years.

Jeff Smith: Yeah, ’70, but even then you weren’t doing a lot of tournaments, in ’70.

Joe Lewis: I quit in ’71; I was tired of it.

Jeff Smith: He comes back and wins heavyweight. I won light heavyweight. I thought I would fight him for the Grand Championship, but the promoter decided to come up with different rules for the finals that year. He was trying to make the finals more exciting, so it was total points. I won the Grand Championship and I didn’t have to fight Joe, so that was like the best of both worlds.

Joe Lewis: We were supposed to split that extra $500.

Jeff Smith: We didn’t split that? We stayed in Texas and trained, worked out, and went to Top Ten Nationals the weekend after that. Joe fought for first place in that tournament. They robbed you on that one, I think. I had a corneal abrasion in my left eye and pink eye in both eyes.

Joe Lewis: Somehow, you got the pink eye.

Jeff Smith: That was your fault. Bill didn’t have the pink eye. You weren’t in Texas.

Bill Wallace: I didn’t go to Texas.

Jeff Smith: Bill liked to go to Dallas. That was his favorite tournament. We would go to the San Antonio tournament, to the Houston tournament, to Dallas, and even the tournament in Oklahoma City,

Joe Lewis: I liked Dallas and Atlanta because I was never beaten in those cities.

Jeff Smith: Those tournaments and then Jhoon Rhee’s nationals and the Battle of Atlanta. I lost to Pat Worley that year, in ’66. He took first; I took second in Brown Belts.

Joe Lewis: Brown, I was wondering if you guys were Black Belts.

Jeff Smith: No, I was still a Brown Belt. I wouldn’t test for my Black Belt until I won a first place. I had been winning these second places in the Brown Belt division. I lost to Pat Worley and Billy Watson and a couple of other guys who were pretty good fighters in Texas. I finally won a first place somewhere and I said, “Okay, I can do my Black Belt test now.” I figured if I couldn’t beat all the Brown Belts, then why should I be a Black Belt? Of course, all that doesn’t play out in the actual test. There’s much more to do than just spar, as I discovered when I failed my first Black Belt test under Jhoon Rhee. “Oh, you mean I have to do all of the forms?” All right, I need my Black Belt.

Stephen Oliver: You failed me for Blue Belt.

Jeff Smith: I probably did the same thing to you that he did to me.

Stephen Oliver: I had a broken hand.

Jeff Smith: That was no excuse! You had a broken hand, you sparred; you can’t fight? Stephen Oliver: I sparred.

Joe Lewis: Did you get your Black Belt from Jeff or Jhoon Rhee?

Stephen Oliver: From Jhoon Rhee. Joe Lewis: I thought you got it from Jeff, but I was talking to Mr. Rhee recently and he said, “Oh no, Stephen was my Black Belt.” Stephen Oliver: I was teaching in Tulsa and moved to D.C. to go to Georgetown.

Joe Lewis: You used to work with Jeff, right? Stephen Oliver: Yeah.

Joe Lewis: Yeah, I remember all that. Stephen Oliver: Jeff used to come to Tulsa to give the tests when Jhoon Rhee couldn’t come.

Jeff Smith: When I came to Tulsa, I noticed that Stephen was a Brown Belt at the time. He kicked like Bill Wallace with both legs. He’d go straight up in the air. Stephen Oliver: I kicked like Pat Worley. That’s how I learned…

“Old age and deception will overcome youth and skill every time.” Bill Wallace

Jeff Smith: No, because you’re actually kicked higher than Pat Worley. I invited Stephen to come to Washington and train for the summer. That was in 1970, I think, when you came to Washington, right before your Black Belt test. You had driven straight through…

Stephen Oliver: I was 10 in 1970. I didn’t drive straight through.

Jeff Smith: Well, then it must have been…

Stephen Oliver: ’76.

Jeff Smith: The ’76 Junior Nationals?

Stephen Oliver: I think that’s the same summer I sparred with Bill because I stopped in Tennessee and had to go see his school. I walked into his school and he was sparring. I said, “I’m on my way to Washington to see Jeff Smith and the Jhoon Rhee guys.” He said, “Oh, you’re a Jhoon Rhee guy? You got pads?” “Yeah.” “Go put them on!” Of course, I was a Brown Belt and I thought, “Okay, is this a good idea or not?” You sparred with me for like an hour and a half; it was a long time.

Bill Wallace: Did you have fun?

Stephen Oliver: At least you did.

Bill Wallace: I never hit anybody hard. I can’t. Stephen Oliver: You have good control. You didn’t hit me hard until it was full contact. I was so terrified of him; I kept kicking, but watched his leg and he kept hitting me in the face.

Bill Wallace: Did I say I was sorry?

Stephen Oliver: No.

Jeff Smith: Stephen came to D.C., which was the weekend of Jhoon Rhee’s Nationals. Stephen called and I said, “Come directly to the tournament because you will participate.” He didn’t know exactly what time he would arrive. He came to the tournament and saw me. I said, “Did you bring your equipment? Go put on your uniform. You missed the forms.” “Oh, good” he said. “The sparring has started.” Stephen said, “I just drove 24 damn hours straight.” I told him that the fighting can only last 20, 30 minutes, it can’t be that long. Stephen won the Brown Belt division, even after driving all that distance, so that way he couldn’t say…If he lost, then he would have blamed me the whole time, but now he had to thank me. Now he constantly reminds me that I made him do that.

Stephen Oliver: You also made me fight in that nocontact tournament in Baltimore where I was almost disqualified. I think Jeff tried to disqualify me for smacking somebody in the face with a hook kick.

Jeff Smith: What did I say?

Stephen Oliver: He smiled real big and said, “Nice kick. You’re disqualified.”

Jeff Smith: That was the PKA Nationals.

Stephen Oliver: That was in New Orleans.

Jeff Smith: Yeah, that was a great tournament. It was nice to go to Mardi Gras at the same time and have an excuse to go there.

Joe Lewis: You and me and Jim Miller went running on the beach. I had to wait for you guys.

Jeff Smith: I’m sure you did.

Joe Lewis: Remember, we ran in our underwear?

Jeff Smith: No, they were…that was the old style bathing suit.

Joe Lewis: We told everybody they were bathing suits.

Jeff Smith: Of course. Joe had his tighty whities though and gave it away.

Joe Lewis: Underwear. We went out and all the Black Belts were playing volleyball. They didn’t know.

Part 2 is coming soon, stay tuned…..

When you’re ready to become the “champion” professional of martial arts in your community and grow your school and advance your career, start with a NAPMA Maximum Impact membership.
Visit NAPMAFreeOffer.com for all the details!